The crash last week of the Germanwings plane has shocked many. In view of the apparent mental health record of the co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, questions have been asked about the screening policies of airlines. The focus has generally been on the conditions pilots may have or the arguments they might be having with partners or other situational factors that might make them unstable.
Even when the issue of the medication a pilot may be taking is raised, as an article by Erica Goode in the New York Times makes clear it is in the context of policies that permit pilots to continue on drugs like antidepressants to ensure any underlying conditions are effectively treated.
Clearly if a drug is effective in clearing up an underlying condition, its use should make the pilot – or driver of a coach carrying 50 or more passengers – safer. But fewer treatments in medicine are effective in this sense than people might think and even when effective they come with effects that need to be balanced against the likely effects of the underlying condition.
Doxycyline, for instance, a widely used medicine for acne and for malaria prophylaxis, can be very effective for acne. But doxycycline can also make someone depressed, suicidal and homicidal, while acne doesn’t do this.
Other antibiotics like Levaquin and Cipro can cause a range of serious and enduring problems including psychosis but are ordinarily given for problems that are unlikely to compromise a pilot’s ability to fly and keep her passengers safe.
So what about depression? The risks of suicide or homicide from mild to moderate depression or anxiety are almost nil. Think of it this way – what we call depression today in nine cases out of ten was called anxiety 30 years ago before the development of the SSRIs and anxiety was not thought of as a significant risk factor for suicide or homicide.
Difficulties with a partner or at work can lead to precipitate action including suicide or homicide. They can also lead to anxiety or depression but the anxiety or depression linked to these events don’t for the most part cause problems except in so far as sleeplessness on the one side or a sedative drug on the other might cause an accident.
Whatever the risks of suicide or homicide linked to such anxiety or depressive states might be, in clinical trials antidepressants close to double them – and not just in younger adults. They do so by causing psychosis, or by producing an agitation laced with suicidal or homicidal thoughts, or by producing an almost lobotomized state in which people will do things they would ordinarily never do, or by increasing blood alcohol levels if the person has had a drink.
GSK data suggest these drugs appear to make someone more likely rather than less likely to “act out” if they have just had a partner break up with them. See Kraus – Clinical features of patients with treatment-emergent suicidal behavior following Paroxetine.
All of this has been relatively well known for decades. We could have made things much safer by discussing the changes treatment can trigger openly much earlier and permitting patients and doctors to identify problems and find solutions – such as switching to a drug of a different class. Doctors and patients have been left flying by the seat of their pants.
There are likely to be a number of features to the current debate.
We know almost nothing about what antidepressants actually do – we still don’t know what they do to serotonin.
Rather than being effective like an antibiotic, these drugs have effects – as alcohol does. Their primary effect is to emotionally numb. Patients on them walk a tightrope as to whether this emotional effect is going to be beneficial or disastrous.
We know even less about other drugs Lubitz might have been on such as mood-stabilizers. These too can produce suicidality and homicidality but they have a different signature to that of antidepressants. The trouble is that, unlike the case of the SSRIs, no doctor giving any patient a mood-stabilizer can tell them what to watch out for or what the timeframe of problems is likely to be.
Lubitz has been widely reported as having vision problems – see Mail on Sunday. Antidepressants cause visual problems – see RxISK. But there is little known about these problems.
Some of these will think nothing of playing the personality card in the case of Lubitz to create the impression this was all about his instability rather than an instability in him created by treatment.
These companies will in a variety of ways play the card that anyone suggesting treatment may have been part of what went wrong are just conspiracy theorists.
We will hear that the Federal Aviation Authority in the US only permits pilots to fly on a selected number of antidepressants when they have been stable on treatment for six months. Sounds good. But no mention of the problems that happen on withdrawal – which are as great as those that happen on starting. See Antidepressant Withdrawal: A Prozac Story – on RxISK. Prozac is one of the selected antidepressants.
Once treated with a drug, a pilot is never the same again. Even if the underlying condition clears, he may not be able to stop. The risks are not eliminated. The only way to manage these risks is to have a close relationship between the pilot and her doctor in which the doctor is fully informed as to what the risks are – a doctor who acts like a pilot in the sense that she doesn’t take risks that will bring her down along with her pilot–patient.
In lectures for several years – see Professional Suicide, I have compared the roles of doctors and pilots saying that we are all safer flying than we are in the hands of our doctors because the pilot knows if the system isn’t safe and you die, she will also, whereas doctors can always and routinely do blame your condition or your circumstances.
This idea has now crashed into Andreas Lubitz and his doctors. We are all wondering about Lubitz and what motivated him. What about the doctors who may have unintentionally primed him?
At the moment it is difficult to see Lubitz as a victim but he may be. His doctors may also be victims. They may have joined a string of doctors who agonize over horrific events they are party to.
Treatment may not have precipitated what happened in this case but there are many people in the pharmaceutical industry who have known for a long time that something like this can happen on their medication and they have done nothing to put in place systems to manage these risks or to dismantle the system that gives rise to risks like this at a much greater rate than we should have to tolerate.
That corporations might do this is not a conspiracy theory. In the famous Ford Pinto case, a Ford executive made aware of risks that their car would lead to a regular number of drivers and passengers being incinerated each year – a problem that could have been inexpensively put right – famously wrote
The powers that be have been winging it for decades.Share this:
Copyright © Data Based Medicine Americas Ltd.
you are absolutely right!
There are a lot of facts pointing to antidepressants as the smoking gun.
It looks, like Andreas L. has stopped his medication and than transformed to a killing machine.
Nobody thought he could do something like that. But now everybody thinks it was his depression – Nothing could be more wrong. Depressive people lie on the sofa. They don’t drive aeroplanes.
I have written about it in german.
And guess who is my key witness? It’s you.
The plane crash shows how dangerous these medications can be. I wonder if people even need more spectaculous killings to wake up and realize the danger inside these pills.
Thankyou, can you also put the information in English, much appreciated.
When I was experiencing my psychotic episode under the influence of the drug Enbrel – I thought there was a group of people encouraging me to commit suicide.
Luckily – with a lot of effort I was able to resist – but I honestly was thinking at the time that this supposed group of people could encourage anyone in the world to commit suicide and I was thinking of how pilots could be affected too.
This belief I had that I was being controlled, along with my own self preservation, saved me from a tragic outcome – but it is ironic that this tragedy may actually have happened with this pilot due to his medication.
I suppose it was only a question of time?
During my episode I must have been calculating all the consequences of what could happen to myself and other people whilst under control of a drug (but I thought it was other people at the time). Trying to stay logical.
I have flown a plane or two and looking back I think it is feasible that this pilot
felt he could fly during his dance with drugs. You don’t necessarily lose your confidence or ability to do things you normally do. It is just you may not be able to cope with the amount of pressure the drug is putting you under at the time to commit extreme acts. So he may have just had to give in to that pressure and crashed the plane.
Yes – extremely dangerous drugs – as I keep saying.
Please explain how Enbrel should cause neurological side effects as a monoclonal antibody that can’t pass the blood brain barrier.
Well said, keep the posts coming, especially if they are “honest” and let it be known what he was on. It is not the illness, IT IS THE DRUG. As a partly recovered survivor of these medications, I know it in my heart, that the poor co-pilot, as were the other 149 on that plane, all victims of the murderous and callous push of corporations, who believe in profits, before commonsense. Lets hope finally fellow sufferers, will rise up and say, sorry the Emperor “has no clothes”. We hope and pray.
For an obviously dedicated, smart, physical fit individual, to pass all the tests, and become a pilot at age 27, this man must have been an exceptionally gifted and bright person. ONE MUST ASK, AND EXPECT HONESTY, ALL THOSE WHO LOST LOVED ONES. Ask the question “why did he suddenly act in such a bizarre, out of character, extreme way?” I hope to god, that the truth comes out. The truth is there in the statistics….. not the “”öh I know psych drugs help, cause I saw it in the ad”.” OR worse, the innocence of “”they must work, or they would have banned them by now””…. er just like they banned asbestos in the 60s and tobacco in the 60s? Everyone involved in this tragedy, deserves the truth, the real truth, and nothing but the truth from Mr Prozac, et al.
Andreas L. was a handsome and nice young man.
He was not drinking, he was not aggressive, no sentence, nothing.
Than he became worried and developed a depression. Absolutely nothing special. Everybody should be allowed to become depressed.
Like many others, he was set on medication.
Till now it is unclear whether the medication worsened his sight.
It looks like no therapist has talked to him about the sideeffects of the medication especially when quitting abrubtly.
It’s really a pitty. People feel sad and look for help. Then they are put on medication and after a short time things go worse.
The real cause of the problem never gets looked at blame it on the individual, their mental illness anything but the mind altering substance thats being prescribed to them.
If the authority’s really care about the victims then they need to also look at the side effects of the pills being prescribed to prevent it happening again. They at least owe that to the victims.
And what chance has anyone got when your in a gp surgery where you don’t even have a named gp its just whoever is available. No continuity of care how can any Dr know or care what’s going on with you especially when your rushed in a 5 min apt.
So glad to see you address this issue, Dr. Healy. Great article from a renowned and distinguished researcher and practitioner in the field. We have known this information for decades and yet the uninformed continue to buy into the myths spun by the drug companies at the rate of millions of new patients annually. My son and his mother took their own lives 14 yrs ago as a result of the use of these dangerous drugs. And I have known of many friends who have followed them down that dark path since then. How many more must die before the practicing medical community and/or the government call the pharmaceutical companies to account for all of these destroyed lives??!!!?
I made an Update with all the information we got till now in Germany.
Feel free to use or if there is someone to translate: Use it! Post it, Send it.
google translate from above article:
The entire world pointing a finger at Andreas L. A monster he should be, who cold-bloodedly killed 150 people. But is this the whole truth?
Our thoughts are with the families of the victims of the plane crash. Never again so should an incident occur!
But what can you do? Physicians should better against people with mental illness, is a current requirement.
But in fact, Andreas L. has taken multiple psychiatric help. There is a suspicion that prescribed by psychiatrists drugs have led to the act. It would not be the first time that psychiatric drugs have caused rampages.
Instead of new medical powers we need a culture of the Enlightenment, which discusses openly about the effectiveness and side effects of antidepressant drugs.
☞ It is called: Physicians should protect us better against the mentally ill. But is this the whole truth?
Andreas L. was a disciplined and motivated young man whose dream was to fly airplanes.
The pilot training is demanding and with the selection of most candidates fail due to a psychological stress test. Andreas L. mastered this test, at the same time a sense of responsibility and leadership readiness is checked. A clear indication of his basic psychological health.
During the training, which was held for several months abroad, Andreas L. developed a depressive disorder. The causes are unknown. What is known is that he retired and during this time he managed to completely healthy.
This is admirable and worthy of recognition. While it is not known whether he was even then drugs, but prevent psychotropic very often the conclusion of a demanding training. The drugs have a negative impact on the body and the mind. Many people who take psychotropic drugs require 12 hours of sleep a day and yet are hardly efficient.
Psychiatrists say then often: “You must say goodbye to your dream.”
Andreas L. has not done so. He has fought and succeeded successfully complete his education. Depression Today it assumes that his mental state was checked several times during this period. It can therefore no longer have suffered from depression.
Some time later joined him at eye complaints. He noticed this and tried again to help. He even went to the “best doctors” in a university hospital.
It does not need a lot of empathy to imagine that employed the declining eyesight Andreas L. massively. But it is unlikely that informed him his psychiatrist about having a visual impairment is a known side effect of many psychotropic drugs. Basically all psychiatrists describe newer antidepressants as well tolerated.
Checks, therefore, was a possible retinal detachment. This was not found. Instead, the doctors suspected “psychosomatic reasons”. In other words, further investigations were not made, Andreas L. was presented as a psycho who is not ticking properly in the brain and can therefore look bad – an amazing and humbling guess – with fatal consequences.
What happened after this diagnosis in the head by Andreas L.?
He stood before an airworthiness investigation that he would not stand with his poor eyesight. It is unclear whether his girlfriend was pregnant, this should have been the case, it is likely to have this additional pressure.
He keeps trying to get help. Get visited Neurological and psychiatric practices and prescribed more medications.
Probably noticed Andreas L., that will not help him the tablets and decided not to take it further. It is well known that serious personality changes occur in such cases. Whether he have warned his doctors, is not known.
But from the numerous questionnaires has depression today so far received from interested parties emerged that no patient was informed about the difficulties that can arise when issuing antidepressants.
We therefore assume that Andreas L. was not informed about the risks of weaning.
And then the change of nature seems to have used and he committed an act that no one would have given him credit for. It is not clear whether he was in that moment, in a sane state.
It killed 150 people.
Are not these enough reasons for a rethink?
Depression Today: What has actually been done before start psychiatrist educate their patients about side effects and begin to consider whether antidepressant medications – the serious side effects are worth – with its low efficiency. The suicide probability increases with antidepressant treatment.
Thanks, but this sounds like my english. Wuuaahh.
The focus on Andreas Lubitz’ history of depression by the media has quickly met with a backlash against “stigmatizing” mental illness. It’s not hard to understand. Millions of people have experienced clinical depression in some form — and in recent years they’ve “learned” that they all have a lifetime, biologically-based mental illness. In other words, not simply that they are or have been depressed, but that they Have Depression.
Lots of them have taken to Twitter and Facebook to protest in the past few days. Don’t scapegoat people with depression! You rely every day on people struggling with this condition, who carry out responsible jobs and never hurt anyone. I may have considered suicide at times, they say, but I would not dream of harming anyone else.
It’s strange. As one of those people, I remember a time when no one was afraid of depression! As Peter Ansari says, depression was a sad person lying on a couch. There was stigma, sure — some people thought you weak, or a quitter, or getting some neurotic reward for being sick. Those prejudices persist, but it’s become politically incorrect to voice them openly.
Instead we have fear. We should go through the schools with a fine-toothed comb, using advanced screening methods to “identify” kids who may Have Depression. Suicide is said to be a constant danger wherever Depression exists. Acts of irrational, chilling violence — school shootings, murder-suicides or the Germanwings crash — can be explained by one person’s “depression.”
How did we get here? I blame the promoters of the Medication Cure – in particular, the ban they’ve imposed on discussing the meds and the agitation, paranoia and violence they can sometimes cause. As a result we’ve been conditioned to accept “depression” as an explanation for horrific acts of mayhem. Why wouldn’t folks get hysterical, and start to demand the removal of the “Depressed” from safety-sensitive positions? Far from calming this hysteria, Pharma and its promoters have added to it to stress the urgency of medicating even milder cases. Fear, and relentless pressure to take meds, thus infects not only our response to the “Depression” of strangers, but even to those we love.
There’s a bitter humor in recalling the great appeal of the Biological Revolution to patients thirty years ago. Someday soon we may cure all these illnesses, they said. In the meantime, we will abolish the stigma that clings to them! The world will understand that it’s not your fault. You have a disease. Just like diabetes or MS. Those who have suffered in silence will come forward for help, and as your numbers grow, acceptance and understanding will grow as well.
Gee, thanks, guys.
The hand-wringing over the possibility that depressed persons will be stigmatized for depression of for seeking relief from depression is a bizarre red herring in this astounding failure of journalism.
First, I would think that a depressed person, upon learning that her condition could cause her to drive her car into a wall, would hoof it to the nearest psychiatrist.
Second, it is actually to humanity’s advantage if fear of being stigmatized for seeking treatment for depression does prevent people from seeking treatment with psych drugs. Lives will be saved.
let’s hope that maybe,just maybe, a relative of one of the plane passengers or crew have personal experience of antidepressants and put two and two together and realise what could well have caused this massive behaviour change resulting in the loss of their loved one. If they then shout it from the rooftops let’s make sure that we join them and see if we can wake humanity up to the evil of these drugs.
Let’s admit it, shall we, that though we are in 2015, little is known about the recesses of the human mind and how darkness can influence it through pharmeceuticals, which allow a disconnection from our own will. In a day when people’s sex changes are followed on youtube and television, we still are not allowed to talk about voices we hear or thoughts that enter our minds that are not ours. And little by little we are also being shut down in any talk about God and exactly what good and evil are. Kind of hard to fight an enemy which we’re unwilling to identify.
Perhaps this thread could be sent to German media? To friends and family of those who have perished?
One key element sticks in my mind – in this, as in many other “SSRI Stories” – quotes from those who knew the co-pilot’s character stating that such an act was inexplicable…INEXPLICABLE…based on the co-pilot’s character.
A few years ago there was a sad story in the L.A. Times about a young mother who drown her two young children. Her family were stunned, saying that such a thing was inexplicable – that she adored her children, etc. This young mother was on antidepressants, and the public defender used this in the woman’s defense.
I wonder ifba Qantas flight will have to go down in Australia before the powers that be acknowledge that psychiatric medicines for depression or psychosis have terrible side effects for some people. We know who they are. People who have defective metabising genes. Testing DNA by cheek swab costs $160 in Australia. The situation reminds me of the ten plagues sent by nature to persuade the pharaoh to let Moses go. Perhaps the death of the firstborn will do it. Princess Di was cutting her wrists and throwing herself down stairs while on Prozac. Her children need to be tested. We need to know what the pilot was initially being treated for before medication induced depression and mania set in what drugs and doses he was taking and what genes of the cytochrome P450 family he was carrying. I am the author of akathisia homicides open access journal. Lucire Dove homicides finds the explanatory paper.
There is now a major post on RxISK by Julie Wood covering 47 media reports of accidents and suicides involving pilots and antidepressants.
Hi My name is Alice and i am writing from Norway.How on Earth can we Wake up People when it comes to side effects of psycofarma?
I was in grief after loosing my husband.Had never ever been depressed or Manic.Was a very well acting person as business owner.The doctor put me on a “coctail” of psycofarma.I was nummed.None caring.Just like a Zombie.
My personality changed compleatly.From being a well known caregiver,working for childrens care and animal care,and care for my Family.i became as said none caring.This was a catastrofe for my Family.How many People gets “killers” when they are on psycofarma ?How many kills themselves when they are on psycofarma?How many get killed by side effects ?
in Norway the psycofarma use is increasing enormously.Scaring this is.
The coctors and politicians are compleatly in the “Pocket” of psycofarma industry.
The pure pilot in Germany will be hanged out as sinner,but who is the real murderer ?The doctors and the Pharma industry. Hopfully this will really come out to Public.It is very important!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Whatever the risks of suicide or homicide linked to such anxiety or depressive states might be, in clinical trials antidepressants close to double them – and not just in younger adults. They do so by causing psychosis, or by producing an agitation laced with suicidal or homicidal thoughts, or by producing an almost lobotomized state in which people will do things they would ordinarily never do”.
I was a healthy, non-conflictive yet introverted and shy 19 year old when first inflicted with depression. I was put on the SSRI Seroxat, and within the space of a month, I went from being shy and introverted to overly outgoing, loud, obnoxious, arrogant, aggressive and passive, to totally dismissive of people’s feelings. NOTHING bothered me. I was totally and utterly dehumanized. But I was no longer lying about in bed or lounging on the sofa. I had become “productive” once more, which is basically what matters. I began to act in ways alien to my old self and did things totally out of character. It all came to a head when the time came to withdraw from Seroxat. I had disabling panic attacks which I had NEVER experienced prior to taking Seroxat. (“an agitation laced with suicidal or homicidal thoughts”) My anxiety hit the roof so high that I ended up taking an overdose to try to end the madness, which leads me to your next point:
“Some of these will think nothing of playing the personality card in the case of Lubitz to create the impression this was all about his instability rather than an instability in him created by treatment”.
I know perfectly well that had I not been on Seroxat or in the depths of withdrawal, I would NEVER have contemplated suicide. Even when depressed and prior to taking Seroxat, I had NEVER considered suicide as a solution. Doing it was almost like an out of body experience. I certainly was not in control when I made that attempt. It was as though my body and mind had been possessed by someone else. And then after the suicide attempt and other outrageous behaviour caused by withdrawal, I had to and still have to live with unjustly being labelled as being BPD, all because I was on a mild-altering drug that made me behave like a lunatic. In 2009, after being on Seroxat for more than 15 years (addiction-withdrawal-catch22-addiction keeping me on it), I was struck down with what is now for me 100% (Seroxat-induced) sexual dysfunction. I thought stopping the drug would let me return to my normal sexual functioning. It NEVER happened. I HAVEN’T had one orgasm since 2009.
“We know almost nothing about what antidepressants actually do – we still don’t know what they do to serotonin”
I have heard doctors say they actually deplete serotonin, which would explain my inability to experience pleasure. I have severe sleep problems too. Serotonin regulates sleep. If you disable the re-uptake pump, the recycling effect of serotonin is stopped, meaning it will eventually be depleted.
Seroxat basically turned me into an inconsiderate animal. The no regard for people’s emotions is what makes it “easy” for people on drugs to consider killing. Consider is the wrong word. It’s like an automatic response. The aggression they feel while on them is what forces them to kill. Luckily, I didn’t kill anyone, but I nearly killed myself. If this pilot was on an SSRI, I can totally see where he was coming from. People will say if he was suicidal, fair enough, but to take 149 others with you is not acceptable. This is precisely what this drug does to you. Once you have no regard for people’s’ emotions, you literally don’t mind killing them. THEY NUMB YOU, turning you into a would-be killer. I can’t stress how emotionally numb I was while on them.
“It isn’t enough to see a person like David Healy say these things for us to believe it. We have to see the data with our own eyes before we’ll believe it”. ~ David Healy.
I am telling how it was for me, and I am telling of my post SSRI sexual dysfunction, but, hey, why believe me either? I am just another nobody who surfs and posts on the internet.
No, you are not just another nobody. Based on what you have experienced, study the situation here (suppression of information for profit) and work on ways to use social media to get the truth told.
There are good reasons why BigPharma isn’t on social media so much.
My daughter is on an SSRI and every now and then, when she bursts out at me, I know it’s not really about me (well, maybe a tiny bit ….you know mothers and daughters) but a medication change of some sort. I have done my best to encourage her to get off, but she is terrified. And with good reason.
Ok lady, I can accept you have tried to get your daughter off this SSRI and failed, but I would seriously suggest you get her off it by hook or by crook. I had to be admitted to hospital to get off Seroxat. If you really read anything I said, you will see that your daughter runs the risk of becoming 100% sexually dysfunctional. My life basically stopped when PSSD set in. It’s not just sexual dysfunction, it’s TOTAL emotional numbing. I literally feel no human emotions whatsoever and have become a recluse. My life is over. I lost my boyfriend, job, right to reproduce, marry, sleep, love and feel loved. I have severe insomnia, never sleep and can’t orgasm. My mother tried to get me off it for years, and I’m so sorry I rebuffed her attempts. I thought I was ok till it was too late. In 2009, while STILL on Seroxat, I was truck down with crippling PSSD/ acute emotional numbing. If only I had listened to my mother. But it’s not like I never tried to get off it – I did. The problem was that withdrawal was such hell, I always ended up back on it. I’m now off it 5 years and still have severe PSSD, and it is NOT a case of a returned depression. I know that for a fact. I was depressed once. This is a million times worse.
My life has been destroyed by pssd, also. I’ve also lost everything inside of me. I wonder how common this is?
the numming you get by taking psycofarma is the worse part.That comes very quickly.The other side effects comes slowly , maybe after years,depending on how strong your body is.
My hope is that someone really take this to consideration when they talk about the poor pilot.May be we should give inside information to a newspaper in Germany?What about David Healy ?It is high time this comes out.Why not use a tragedy so big to something that can be of help for many People around the world?I have many good contacts in Germany that can tell who is the best newspaper or media ? Unfortunatly something tragic has to happend to give the world a wakeup Call !!!!
Alice – Yes -this is why it is so important for Big Pharma to acknowledge the evidence when it stands before them.
I was not depressed and did not have any illness other than the Rheumatoid Arthritis before the RA drugs altered my mind.
When I recovered following treatment, I also did not have any depression or any illness other than the RA.
I am trying to explain that Rheumatoid Arthritis on its own did not encourage thoughts of suicide in me and it never gave me depression – It was the drug prescribed to me that altered my mind’.
I had battled with Rheumatoid Arthritis for years without it getting me down.
I stand here today completely healthy, knowing exactly what extreme things a drug, all on its own, can do to someone.
I am a survivor – and didn’t die
BIG PHARMA NEEDS TO LISTEN TO SURVIVORS CAREFULLY because the living can describe exactly what these mind altering drugs did to them, what it felt like and how they coped with it.
They may find the answers with the living if they bothered to look and ask questions.
The pilot will never be able to tell his story and there will be so many question marks as to what happened.
As you say – how many more tragedies do we have to encounter before there is a wake up call?
Listen to the living:) don’t wait for deaths.
Let the families of the victims (including Andreas Lubitz’s family) know the possible side-effects of SSRI.
And let us hope they get the answers WE ALL deserve.
It’s becoming so “normal” to read in your newspapers about the latest horrific crime committed by “the oh so sweet person”, that was “depressed”.
While the medication slips beneath the radar, people seriously Believe that a person that is sad and Crying, at the same time should be violently angry?
Through history, I thought, the only mental states that caused violent behaviour was schizophrenia or psychosis. Now all of a sudden we are led to Believe that depression or general anxiety produces violent humans.
All the ssri’s prescribed has the Power to inflict strange behaviour in the most sweet and Lovely person among us, that I will testify too.
The debate is being framed as ‘depression caused this’ vs ‘depression can’t cause this’, no mention of an adverse reaction to psychiatric medication/withdrawal at all. The Royal College of Psychiatry have already been working hard to ensure depressed people and not medication are at the centre of the debate. Sir Simon Wessley is leading the defence of depressed people, medication, Psychiatry.
Quoted in the Guardian by Pete Etchells Simon said: “We are all concerned. There are two reasons why: there isn’t a link between depression and aggressive suicide, if that is what this is. There isn’t normally such a link.”
“And second, because of some of the ridiculous things that are said”.
In this second point he is referring to what Piers Morgan said about antidepressants – but he won’t or can’t mention antidepressants in the context of this debate – he would be really good at the yes/no game.
So neither Sir Chief Psychiatrist nor biological psychology lecturer Pete Etchells know of any link at all…not even a tiny little itty bitty outside chance type link? Nothing more plausible than ‘maybe he was a psychopath’? Interestingly, the Guardian states that Pete’s interests include vision, eye movements and motion perception! Still, nothing rang a bell?
Let me google that for you guys…
About 263,000 results”
About 174,000 results
Masuma Rahim, a clinical psychologist writes this in the Guardian :
No mention of medication.
BBC: depression not medication.
The Independant: depression not medication.
Michael Bloomfield, a research fellow in psychiatry at Imperial College London also manages to discuss the mental illness link without mentioning medication…
But he did say this:
“was he able to remain calm by psychologically blocking out the reality of what was happening, disconnecting from reality via a process called “dissociation”..”
That sounds familiar…let me google that for you Michael…
About 68,200 results (0.32 seconds)
This is not like a mass shooting. There is no other bad guy in the room to lay blame on. No guns or evil lobby to blame. Psychopath isn’t going to cut it, there have been too many accounts of his character from people who knew him. You can’t blame aeroplanes as it has already been established that their was no technical fault. As far as I can tell, other than murder/suicide, the only other theories floating around are…. It was Mossad (Veterans Today) or, it was Islamic Fundamentalists (Pamela Geller). You can head down that rabbit hole if you want…good luck.
So i’m afraid its either psychopaths or it’s depressed people, because the pharma/psychiatry axis of evil won’t even allow medication into the debate. Talk about being sold out.
Personally I didn’t need to google it. I used my depressingly reliable crystal ball. While having a coffee with my wife and first reading the news about the Germanwings crash, as soon as I read that the descent was controlled and he had once suffered from burnout or depression and had locked the captain out, I said to Claire; “He was probably on the meds”.
I believe they found the ‘mountain of antidepressants’ in his apartment the next day.
I say that to my wife with increasing frequency while reading the news, and the sickening thing is, sooner or later they always find the meds.
Funny that Piers Morgan is now promoting the idea that psych drugs cause suicide and murder.
He was schooled on the topic by none other than Alex Jones, host of the notorious Infowars.com, while interviewing Jones on his defunct CNN program. Jones was mocked for his rant, but of course, he was completely right:
““America’s number one cause of unnatural death now is suicide…I want to get people off pills that the insert says will make you commit suicide and kill people. I want to blame the real culprit — suicide pills! Mass murder pills!” — Alex Jones on Piers Morgan Tonight”
I just read his write-up. He’s totally missing the point just as everyone else is. If antidepressants are so safe and effective, why are they driving people to commit such horrendous atrocities? The answer is simple: they are NOT safe. Most of the high school kids who have shot dead class-mates over the years were on antidepressants. There are several such cases. I was on Seroxat for years and it made me extremely hostile and aggressive with frequent outbursts of unexplainable violence, especially when it came to withdrawing from it. I never took cocaine, but I can only imagine it’s similar in terms of ability to be addicting and soul-destroying. I’ve lived to tell the story but I’m literally dead inside from having exposed my brain to 15 years of Seroxat use. I don’t function anymore.
“He lost any sympathy I may have had for him the moment he decided to murder 149 people by deliberately crashing his plane into a mountain.
They and their grieving families are the victims, not him”.
It wasn’t a simple case of deciding to crash a plane. A drug in his brain influenced him to bring it down. Antidepressants cloud your judgement and reason. It doesn’t happen to everyone, but it happens in cases where there is another underlying psychiatric illness accompanying the original depression, whether it be diagnosed or not. This was the case of Lubitz. “One day, I’ll do something and the world will remember my name”.
But apart from his own madness, Lubitz was a victim of psychiatric drugs just as the other victims were. While I was under the influence of Seroxat, I took an overdose, but I didn’t know what I was doing. Looking back, it was as though my body had been taken over by someone else. My last attempt at coming off it in 2010 caused me to drink down corrosive cleaning agents. I definitely wasn’t myself. I had lost reason on that particular day. I was a victim of the horrendous side affects of an SSRI for years, and even though I’m now off it, I remain a victim. I am riddled with post-drug side effects that are preventing me from carrying out a normal life.
All I know is my son was perfectly normal emotionally until he was prescribed venlafaxine off label to help with the symptoms of a neurological condition. He was not suffering from depression. He became more morose and emotionless as the weeks went by. It was as if his personality was erased, he didn’t laugh anymore and lost his kind heart.
He suffered terrible physical side effects to the point where he couldn’t take it and stopped taking the drug. That was a big mistake !! He went into withdrawal and during the course of the week became paranoid, aggressive and then the psychosis.
He ended up in a lot of trouble and he too could have hurt others, something alien to him under normal circumstances. Luckily he was apprehended but the consequences of that week have ruined his life.
My thoughts are with the families of the victims in this latest tragedy. It is such a tragic waste of so many lives.
I would be interested to hear how requests relating to the records of his condition and any treatment Andreas L. received are dealt with. Reading a BBC commentary on ‘What drives people to murder-suicide’ the ‘we simply don’t know’ narrative is set against explanations which include drug ‘misuse’, blaming it on the individual, rather than an ‘abusive’ drug. To develop the Ford Pinto quote, it’s a little bit like blaming the driver rather than the faulty make of the car. The human rights angle on how we view depression, and the need to stop stigmatising, while understandable, unfortunately not only distracts attention away from the dangers of the treatment but inadvertently lays the ground for more pharma-medical interventions. And in that context, any admission that SSRIs are remotely connected with this tragedy will be aggressively blocked. By the way, the BBC did get the murder aspect right; it just focussed on the wrong entity.
david interested if you have looked at the apparent link bewteen a certain class of psychiatric drugs and the majority of the mass murders in the US. is that story accurate/interesting? many thanks,
Antidepressant withdrawal syndrome and DUI evaluation.
By: Spiller, Henry; Sawyer, Tama S.
Publication: The Forensic Examiner
Date: Saturday, September 22 2007
Full text at http://acfei-forensics.blogspot.com/2008/03/antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome-and.html
Abstract at https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=247046
Millions of Americans annually receive selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor antidepressants and dual-action antidepressants for their symptoms of depression. These patients are at risk for a well-documented withdrawal syndrome if they abruptly stop their medication. This withdrawal syndrome may produce significant effects that may impair a person’s ability to drive, putting at risk both the driver and others on the road. In a situation of the antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, the impairment is due to the absence of drugs in the patient, producing the paradox of a potentially impaired driver because of an absence of the influence of a drug. This article reviews the antidepressant withdrawal syndrome and describes the effects on cognition, memory, vision, and motor performance and reviews how these clinical effects might be misinterpreted using standardized field sobriety tests suggesting the patient is intoxicated in the absence of other drugs or alcohol.
When you have experienced this emotional numbing that antidepressant treatment can bring in combination with the disinhibition they also can cause, it makes complete sense, and is entirely understandable, how a catastrophe like this with German Wings could due to these drugs.
Having also experienced the mental and physical chaos of withdrawing from these drugs, I see perfectly how this too could contribute to this overwhelming tragedy.
For well over a decade I with chorus of others have wanted to know: How many have to die before pharmaceutical companies come clean about the risks of their drugs?
Perhaps what might give these corporate sociopaths pause to think will be the realisation that they too fly in planes, they too have children in high school, and other places where antidepressant-driven rampages have occurred. In this psychoactive-drug sat
Yes may be it is an golden opotunity for Dvid Healy to contact a newspaper or Magazine in Germany an focus on the effects of pharmasuitical dtugs.?he drugs change Your personallity.Both when you are on it and when you withdraw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I pray that this tragic accident in Germany really gives the world a Wake up Call.That all these People didnt die invaine.May be they saved the lives of thousands around the globe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why does the good professor refer to doctors and pilots as ‘she’ When the great majority are male? You may wish more were female and that may be a laudable aim but the world should be described as it is, not as we wish it were.
The fact still remains. 23.8% of pilots who took part in Aircraft-assisted suicides between 1993-2012 in the US were on psychiatric medication/or had taken psychiatric medication prior to the suicide.
Another epic fail from pharmacological driven psychiatry..
Reminds me of when American comedian, Robin Williams, committed suicide. Toxicology reports were done, and had illegal drugs been found, it would have been headline news. The fact that he had recently begun treatment with medications that carried suicide risks was completely glossed over. In the end, depression got all the credit.
the latest News about rumours about Andreas Lubiz.They say he had converted to Islam? So they can blame the aircrash on religion and not the westly world that are killing millions of People With drugs?Hm Hm this is a Paradox.No way they shall get away With this.If it is true that he converted,why did he do that?We all know that People change their personallity when taking drugs or when withdraw
So true Laurie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Looking back in history,how many well know entertainers has committed suicide and the official cause is depression while the cause is the drugs that doctors put them on!!!!!!!!
The evidence that mainstream writers are regurgitating talking points is in the focus on depression, also known as a “severe depressive episode” to make it sound more menacing.
When you learn what his girlfriends said about his rages, and that he had just bought two Audis, you would expect some pharma-shill “psychiatrist” to intone about mania.
But the story was carved in stone: he was SEVERELY DEPRESSED, and they’ll run with that. Because it serves the purpose, which is filling column inches with anything that will look good alongside advertisements for Zoloft and Seroquel, and looking smart and authoritative.
Speaking of drugs, a French news site states that he had been prescribed “l’Olanzapinen” (Zyprexa) and an unusual antidepressant, “l’Agomelatine.” It is not clear from the translation software I used or my pitiable French proficiency when those drugs were last prescribed to him. I also do not know if Le Parisien is a trustworthy source.
Once again it shows how dangerou Zyprexa is.In Germany they compare Zyprexa With the thaliomid scandal in 50-60es.This is a real harmful drug.Yoy dont see it in the beginning,then you are numbed After awhile though the body starts to get the side effects like adrenal gland,liver,bloodsugar,heart,digestive problems,teeth problems,thyroid and so on.If you are good physical Health it may take some years before it occures.Even though the drugcompany was taken to Court for side effects like diabetes,it doesnt seem to effect the sale.This Company are the largest on diabetes med as well.First they give People diabetes then they sell medications to Cure diabetes ?Now they are selling it to kids and elderly With dementia?
Zyorexa changes Your personality thats for sure.!In Norway this drug is the first choise for psyciatrists when People are”depressed”
I sit here a survivor with a story to tell of how it felt to have to fight against being controlled by a drug.
The drug was for my Rheumatoid Arthritis. I had no depression or any other illness at the time. It just happened overnight. I managed to work through it and ended up in hospital where I was cured. I never attempted suicide or any violent acts and managed to escape any tragic events from occurring but it was horrendously hard to remain resilient. Somehow I did it. And I am completely fine.
Now my tale is shuffled away into a store room for case notes.
No one has recorded how I actually managed to exist whilst it was happening – I am now a label – which has been treated.
I can explain precisely what happened to me and what it feels like to be pushed to the absolute limit whilst on drugs that alter your mind.
As I said before – the pilot will never be able to explain how he felt, yet there are people like myself who are living proof that a drug is capable of making you do all sorts of things.
I am just surprised that more isn’t being done to contact the living for the
evidence, instead of trying to read the minds of the dead>
Gx – Do you think the coping skills and strategies you used to resist the siren call of suicide are things that could be taught to others? If so, such tactics and strategies might become part of warnings given by health care providers, black box warning labels, and so on…it would take some skill to craft these words and have them be accepted, but it would be worth a shot.
I know that my family member (on Zyprexa) had been coached by therapists to ask to be taken to hospital for safe keeping if thoughts of suicide (induced by the Zypexa itself – which I didn’t realize at the time, nor did he) became too strong …we did this three times during that year plus he was on the drug – he would stay on the psych. ward for three days or so, at great cost to his soul I might add. ( He survived at those moments, but the drug ultimately got him…profound hyperglycemia).
Seems to me that education is the key to this puzzling paradox of drugs that are supposed to help make one better instead driving one to violence. Such a notion is tough for the lay public, let alone policy makers, to comprehend. And it doesn’t help matters to have the “climate deniers” (some in mainstream psychiatry, etc.) pointing the fingers of blame everywhere else but the drugs themselves.
Jan – Thank you for your reply.
Yes – wouldn’t it be good to be able to teach people how to resist the ‘siren call’ of suicide caused by drugs>
I will have to give it careful thought and see if I can write something that would be accepted. 🙂
I think possibly it is different for each individual – and I think personality can play a large part in how individuals cope .
I think when someone reaches a crisis point and is desperate – they are looking for a way out of the situation they have found themselves in.
I think people need to place a very strong preservation order on themselves – and when they reach desperation point to say to themselves – I will not let this take me over – I will seek help.
The feeling of being controlled by something or someone may feel apparent and it is up to the individual to say to themselves – I will not let this happen – I will fight it . Then go to hospital or your Doctors fast.
Always look for another safer option and blast ‘suicide’ into non existence.
I’ll have a go at writing something – not sure who I would send it to –
Sorry to hear of your family member Jan – hope things have improved.
Say to yourself ‘you will not be taken over like this.
Say to yourself – I will win and live and survive
Go to hospital or Doctors for help – FAST (don’t leave it to see if it goes away on its own)
Good start, Gx. Perhaps you could solicit others to write about how they, too, resisted the “siren call”…who knows at the moment where this information could end up – perhaps attached to every prescription drug that can possibly cause suicide.
One never knows.
Your case was unique in the sense that you were not taking a psych. drug, so there was no confusion in your mind between a “mental health issue” and what you were feeling. In the case of this pilot, it seems he was checking online to see what the symptoms of “bipolar” were – perhaps his doctors told him this was what was going on, so he thought his condition was the pathology caused by the drug…gets pretty tough to sort things out under such conditions.
Nonetheless, it seems to me extremely important that, if one is to take any drug that has such a risk, that the person be informed as well as learn strategies to resist any such urges should they come on. I know this sounds idealistic, but, as they say – where there’s life there’s hope.
If it was Zyprexa that he was on, he shouldn’t have been allowed on a bicycle never mind pilot a plane! I saw directly the effects of Zyprexa on a friend… nasty nasty drug with very scary side effects. My friend was a total zombie on it..
In response to the many here who struggle to understand the censure of the mainstream media with regard to matters of crucial importance for public safety that involve psychiatry and pharm., I am reposting this comment of mine on 1boringoldman re: the link and quote posted their from David Healy’s blog:
Katie Tierney Higgins RN April 1, 2015 | 12:27 PM
Throughout my 20 year career as a psychiatric nurse, I encountered an obstacle to patient care and safety that could not be surmounted. The great divide, I call it. The superior, authoritarian demeanor of most psychiatrists — which persists even after the evidence for their having claimed authority without evidence has been quite thoroughly documented. It is crucial to witness the responses to the evidence, as it highlights what I see as the greatest evidence of the downfall of psychiatry ;
Is it possible, to engage in discussion about the serious, life threatening risks of *psychiatric prescriptions* for * poorly substantiated psychiatric diagnosis*?
A very few psychiatrists have engaged in the process of dialogue on the issues that most clearly speak to the harm done by propagation of bad science and participation in clearly proven marketing schemes with pharma. David Healy stands out as the only psychiatrist who dared to broach the topics that someone like me, a nurse, find the most relevant to psychiatry. IS it a medical specialty, comprised of professionals who are both courageous in their pursuit of alleviating suffering AND concerned about their patients? As a nurse, I found this NOT to be the case. I am not surprised that the criticisms are now rampant from all sectors of society, and simply furious that even now, when the threats to the public welfare are again, called to our attention, there is a prevailing tendency to protect psychiatry as a *noble profession*.
I encourage all of the commenting psychiatrists here to reflect on– what behavior demonstrates one is both noble and professional? I am providing a link here to a radio interview taped last April, in which Dr. Healy demonstrates that there are, without a doubt, serious issues that must be addressed by his colleagues, and that the process of discussion will not become easier as the evidence for corruption and sheer indifference to it are mounting at an exponential rate.
Hey check this out: https://www.corbettreport.com/interview-858-dr-david-healy-on-ssris-and-violent-behaviour/
It never ceased to confound me, as a nurse, that doctors could deny what was right in front of their faces– the patients complaining, getting worse, losing hope. Similarly it was disturbing to be completely discounted as one who cared for and became closely connected to young patients and their families– AND to be disciplined for offering academic, scientific literature to the discussion (until 2010 at a prominent Harvard affiliated children’s hospital and 2014 in a small, corporate owned hospital) was beyond the pale. I fear for the unwitting public that is now encountering psychiatric *treatment* at a very alarming rate.
I applaud Johann, Altostrata, Martijn and AA for doing their homework and speaking with clarity and compassion. I appreciate Dr. Nardo’s open and ruthlessly seeking mind. The simple truth is that people are suffering from a myriad of maladies– but none seem quite as pernicious or intractable as the condition that causes doctors to lose contact with the purpose of their profession, and seek only to preserve their status as superior authorities.
If ever there was a case for a DSM label– Axis II– thy name is……but since we have it on psychiatrist based authority that these *disorders* are treatment resistant– well, the only recourse I can support is legal/criminal action. There really is no sane excuse for allowing fraud, causing harm where the benefit is clearly financial profit to be called, a *medical specialty*.
IF psychiatry were a valid medical specialty, the discussion proposed by Dr. Healy over a decade ago would be the only focus of this *profession*.
**Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.** per the site keeper.
My comment here continues:
Suppression within the ranks of psychiatry– all professionals at all levels is key to understanding the proliferation of what should have been put to rest over a decade ago. Even open minded blogging psychiatrists have their limits?? Please refer to the entire post and comment thread on 1boringoldman– if interested in what prompted the comment I made there and the — END of that discussion… sort of like a Harry Potter moment– He– “who cannot be named”????
Katie Higgins – In my last testimony before an FDA advisory committee, in the three minutes I was allotted, I called for criminal indictment of those executives at Eli Lilly (Zyprexa) and Astra Zeneca (Seroquel) whose “outted” internal documents showed clear criminal behavior. The Zyprexa documents, for example, are replete with discussions among executives and brand managers (including physicians) of how to hide the lethal side effects (diabetes/hyperglycemia, etc.) being reported by physicians and the press. Lilly knew of these conditions caused by their “blockbuster” yet denied them for years and years. And thousands of people died, including my family member. Of course, criminal indictment of individuals did not happen – the companies merely paid billion dollar fines for off-label marketing.
As for imperious psychiatrists, I’m trying to think of one that wasn’t, in all the years of my dealing with them. Nurses and aides were sometimes different, however, and many had caring hearts. I believe there are some good psychiatrists out there who feel trapped by the pill model of care, and they need help to find a different route for the profession – such organizations as the Foundation for Excellence for Mental Health Care are beginning to show the way. It’s not so easy to be a renegade, especially when one’s bread and butter is involved.
The collusion and criminal behavior extend to our regulators, unfortunately. The FDA is a weakened thing in the area of prescription drug safety- kept that way by pharmaceutical corporate donations to Congressional campaigns, and industry lobbyists, so the public health is endangered in this way as well. There are very few public defenders in the area of prescription drug safety here in the U.S. – one being Public Citizen’s Health Watch, another Consumer Union.
My hope is that major international newspapers, some of which have sterling reputations, (such asThe Guardian) will, in light of this terrible tragic airplane crash, do the digging that needs to be done and begin to set the record straight. It is a needed public service and corrective, and this is a real opportunity for it.
It is impossible to know what happened with the German co-pilot as of now, but hard questions about the influence of medication on his behavior (and his eyesight) must be asked. To do any less is to shirk all duty and responsibility to public health and well being.
Mainstream newspapers have become very weary about reporting on drugs. Are they being paid off too? In the comments section the other day in the Daily Mail, I tried to report of how Seroxat had caused my PSSD. Comments are moderated and it was basically dismissed. Also, for some reason, the BBC stopped investigating Seroxat any further with their programme Panorama, even though Shelley Jofre was getting places. What happened there?
Bravo Kathie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Very well said.
Three days after my ex-partners SSRI dosage was doubled, she reacted with an outburst of the most frightening hostility towards an innocuous suggestion which I made. Her eyes flashed with intense hatred. It was all over in about 30 seconds, but I was shocked and stunned. She had been the calmest, kindest, and most gentle woman I had ever met.
From then onwards, her behaviour became strange and erratic, and she turned increasingly cold and hostile towards me. By the time our relationship ended, three weeks later, she was utterly voided of all emotion and empathy; I was certain that I could have hanged myself in front of her, and she would not have batted an eyelid.
Three months later, she returned to the man whose emotional abuse of her had caused her to seek ‘psychiatric help’ in the first place! Eighteen months later, I finally managed to find her sister, who knew nothing of the drugging, and believed her sister to be ‘well’ as a result of psychotherapy…is it no surprise, then, that I believe chemical psychiatry to be a fraudulent scam?
Drug companies are so devious. They actually admit to the potential suicidal-homicidal harm in their drugs, thus covering their own backsides, so that they cannot be accused of concealment:
“Families and caregivers of patients being treated with antidepressants for MDD or other indications, both psychiatric and nonpsychiatric, should be alerted about the need to monitor patients for the emergence of agitation, irritability, unusual changes in behaviour, and the other symptoms described above, as well as the emergence of suicidality, and to report such symptoms immediately to healthcare providers. Such monitoring should include daily observation by families and caregivers”.
These guidelines are supplied by Pfizer for their SSRI/SNRI products. Similar guidelines apply with all of the major SSRIs, including Prozac, Citalopram, and Seroxat. Also, PIL inserts with SSRIs advise anyone taking an SSRI ‘NOT TO OPERATE MACHINERY’. (What on earth is an aeroplane then?).
But ‘Big Pharma’ then offsets these warnings by suborning an entire branch of the medical profession (psychiatry), who then willingly collude in covering up and ‘window dressing’ for them. Patients don’t deal with drug companies; they see psychiatrists and doctors, who choose the ‘easy’ option of pushing pills (which also has the convenient ‘side effect’ of making many of them very wealthy).
Only days after the Germanwings crash, Sir Simon Wessely blathered on Radio 4 about depressed people needing to seek ‘help’ (for ‘help’ substitute the word ‘drugs’). Now it seems that co-pilot Lubitz may have been seen by ‘a small mountain’ of psychiatrists in the weeks before he drove that plane into the Alps (for ‘psychiatrists’ substitute the phrase ‘drug pushers’).
And Britain’s favourite ‘pop psychiatrist’ Dr Tim Cantopher, in his best-selling book, ‘The Curse of the Strong’, brazenly claims that antidepressants ‘don’t change your personality’. He also claims that in ‘mending your limbic system’ (how does he know how to do this?), you cannot get too much serotonin. Clearly, he ignores akathisia and Serotonin Syndrome.
In about ten years’ time, when half of the UK population has a personal horror story related to these drugs, they will no longer be prescribed. And the men who were so busy pushing them will then advertise their ‘weaning services’ for the millions of addicts who are trapped on SSRIs. And what ‘tools’ will they be using for this weaning? Yes, the latest wonder product (yet more ‘snake oil’) produced by ‘Big Pharma’!
I was put on Seroxat. What happened to your ex-partner happened to me. I lost my ability to feel emotions, to orgasm and to sleep. I came off the drug in 2009 due to continuous numbing of the senses, but never regained the ability to feel emotions, climax or sleep again. I have gone from having everything to having nothing and living alone. I’m basically a vegetable. SSRIs disable the re-uptake pump, preventing the recycling effect of serotonin, so it’s not getting used over and over again as it should be. Instead, it runs on empty and ends up being depleted. Serotonin, as I probably don’t need to tell you at this stage, controls emotions, a sense of well-being, the ability to feel pleasure and sleep.
Regarding the black box warnings on the PIL in every box to cover their asses against being sued in cases of suicides being carried out, let me just say that Tobacco companies came clean about cancer. It hasn’t stopped people from taking the risk. Depression is not a nice place, and most people will do anything to make it go away. Drugs companies know this perfectly well and play with it.
Interesting comments, Walter K
I was duped by Cantopher’s book into believing what he was explaining – much of it, with regard to risk factors for depression, seemed to make a lot of sense and I ticked virtually all of the tick boxes for vulnerability ie. I had been strong, intact too strong. This made sense to me and I believed the explanation, illustrated by the ‘overflowing sink’, about you cannot get too much serotonin.
HOW wrong I was!
What I wonder is Cantopher’s viewpoint now – he can’t be blind to the comments swishing around on blogs such as this one. Is he just callously concerned with maximising income from his book sales? This, and other similar, books should be banned forthwith.
Walter – The pharmaceutical industry was dragged kicking and screaming,and basically forced to place the suicide warning on the label.
I remember the second FDA hearing on the matter ( to raise the age by which suicide would apply up to young adulthood….even though we all know that the age on the warning is a false ceiling).
Even the FDA was basically muscled into placing the warning due to the fury and outrage of family members who had lost loved ones to suicide from the SSRIs.
There was a distraught husband there, Alan Reuthier, whose perfecly okay wife was put on an SSRI and committed suicide soon thereafter. He almost leapt over the dias during his testimony, he was so agonized.
THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY AN ADDITIONAL COMMENT – MORE A QUICK WAY TO GET TO A VERY BUSY MAN!
In his weekly article in the Daily Post yesterday, Lord Wigley (former Plaid Cymru MP) comments on the plane crash etc and goes on to say “Imagine if someone could….change the composition of medicines to make them lethal …”.I see this as a chance to introduce him to the reality of SSRIs etc. and to the SSRI stories – especially those under the “pilot” subtitle – as he concludes by saying that (regarding nuclear weapons) we would be told that no-one with a personality defect could be in such a position as to be in charge of a nuclear arsenal,then adds “No doubt, until last week, many similar, well-meaning people would have said the same about aircraft pilots.” Do you feel it would be appropriate for me to write to him about the work done by yourself and others in bringing the information together on RxISK?
Yes I do
A very late reply – and if possible to receive – but did you do this Mary? And get any reply?
Why does the press and many others think that the underlying course of the tragedy was the pilot´s suicidal tendency? We will never find the truth. It could have been a heart attack, a brain stroke or some other illness. Or something else. Stop speculating, nobody has facts and can receive facts.
Man’s conviction for violent robbery quashed after Judge rules Seroxat was the real culprit for his actions. Could you highlight this case to support this write-up, Dr. Healy? Lubitz’s parents need to see this.
Because he locked the door after the Captain left the cockpit I guess ?
According to his medical records, he was on an antidepressant (SSRI reported by some publications as Zyprexa) and a tranquilizer (lorazepam).
He researched suicide methods and cockpit door security on his computer.
He repeatedly increased the speed of the aeroplane during the descent and accelerated before impact.
He repeatedly reset the aircrafts excessive speed alarms.
He was alive and breathing steadily until impact.
He had been signed off work as sick.
He had a previous struggle with depression and was described in his medical notes from that time as having suicidal tendencies.
He had seen a psychiatrist three times in the weeks before the crash.
He was also seeing a different doctor about a problem with his eyes that he attributed to a car accident in which his airbag went off. The doctor couldn’t find anything physically wrong and had suggested it was psychosomatic.
Given the facts that have come to light, I’m not sure what were supposed to think if not murder/suicide?
All of that above is being reported by various media sources as being from the official investigation, from German Government officials or from the airline itself.
The only speculation here is why the media appears to be focusing on depression, which doesn’t have a link with aggressive suicide, rather than medication, which does have a link with aggressive suicide.
Of course the main reason is nothing more complicated than money makes the world go round, and anything that threatens that is seen by the powers that be as a greater danger to our ‘civilisation’ than the odd …accident.
“We will never find the truth… Stop speculating, nobody has facts and can receive facts.”
In other words…Move along please, nothing to see here.
It doesn´t matter how many medical facts of his “aggressive suicidal tendency” the investigators find. Coclusions are nothing more than speculations, even the possibility of drugs. I surely understand that people always want “the reason” to a catastrohy, it helps in the mourning work.
This in my opinion is wrong. Several things can be concluded – first that certain drugs do cause violence and homicidal tendencies. This does not mean in this man’s case that they did cause homicide even if he was on them. It can be established what medications he was on. And if given access to his clinical and personal details it is possible to make statements that range from it can be pretty conclusively said this drug caused this problem in this instance to on the balance of probabilities the drug caused the problem or that no while this drug(s) can cause problems in this case it didnt.
If it wasn’t possible to make determinations like this the practice of medicine would be impossible and indeed daily life would be too
Dear dr.Healey and others,
It does not matter how many meta-analysis have been made. How can you be so sure
that he was on his medication that time? You won´t know. Maybe he was drunk or under the influence of some other drug?? We shall not know.
Olli Paavilainen, M.D., specialist in psychiatry, psychoanalytical therapist.
Thanks for the input. I agree trials and meta-analyses and other methods that help us work out if a drug can cause a problem, do not let us work out whether it did in this case cause a problem. But equally if i want to cross a street I have to work out whether the objects whizzing up and down are bubbles or solid, and whether the distance will take several seconds or several minutes to cross – especially if I am not German and am crossing the street at a time and place of my choosing. If we can’t work things like this out, the species doesn’t survive. Using not totally dissimilar methods, if in possession of all the facts of this case, and this may need to include blood drug levels or hair drug levels and descriptions of this man#s behavior in general and leading up to the event from colleagues, friends and family it is possible to work out what the likely options are of of those it may be possible to determine a likeliest option.
We can say with certainty these drugs can cause homicide. We can say that given the evidence base for such effects and given the number of people linked to mass homicide who have been on treatment that it is highly likely that at least one mass homicide over the past 30 years has been caused by treatment.
If you are saying that it may remain speculation in this case, because the authorities refuse to make available the details needed to come to a reasonable judgement, then that’s another matter. I would just note one more thing – the only person who can give a convincing view that treatment played no role in this will be someone who believes and is believed to believe that treatment can in principle cause problems
To dr. Healy and others,
Every psychiatrist knows that ad-medicine can activate a person with depression to commit suicide. But 67% of depressive patients get help from ad-drugs. -It looks like a common trait that people ( mostly laymen) look at the side-effects of any drug, leaving the good effect without consideration. -I´m not defending drugs; I am a psychoanalyst…
Nice spring for you all,
Z., M.D., psychiatrist and psychoanalyst.
Dr. Freidman at the New York Times discussed the crash in a Q&A with readers on March 30, hundreds of thousands of readers will now be grossly mislead.
“Is it true that suicidal thoughts are sometimes listed as side effects of certain drugs used to treat depression?”
Friedman said the FDA had done “a series of meta-analyses of 372 randomized clinical trials of antidepressants” which found a doubled risk of suicidal thinking or suicidal behavior for the medicated subjects, and that “none of the suicide attempts documented in the clinical trials were fatal.”
I found the study. This is what they actually reported: “There were eight reported completed suicides […]”
Freidman was able to remember that there were 372 trials in the meta-analysis, but completely forgot about the 8 suicides. I emailed the editor of the health section, and will be watching to see if the Times makes a correction.
There should be more than enough stories about how harmful psycofarma drugs are.How many People that” change” their personality after starting taking them.
People that you never ever would think that would commit cuicide or harm others.I think it is more important than ever , to look at the side effects in the body of these drugs.When problems occure in other parts of the body,it definitely also effects the brain.Like thyroid and adrenal gland.In very many cases doctors dont check this,and not always the usual bloodtest does show unbalance.You have to take a more radical test ,. to get proper results
There are too many doctors and psycitrists that do not take radically tests of body disease.Neighter before diagnosing “mental” illness nor after drugs use.
Fare too many has a problem With thyroid, in the first Place, that causes depression ,but where diagnosed as “mental ill” . And put on drugs that worsen the problems and depression.
You dont have to have much fantasy to see that when the german pilot also was loosing his eyesight,he became even more depressed.
I know from People that have been on zyprexa have almost got blind.(Zyprexa gives diabetes that effects the eyes)I am sure that other drugs effects the eyes as well.
Humans are not born evil,but unbalance in body and mind.can make anyone so.
Hope this tragedy can bring psycofarmadiscussion to highlight.
We are all afraid of nuclear weapon,but what about the psycofarma , that ruins so many lives and families?
The effects are more hidden and goes over years,while Nuclear kills faster!!!
The Pharma industry are ruled by politicians and Money The walk over dead bodies to get their Products on the marked.
we see that in every country.
The press do not dear to look into this.They get threatend to silence.
Every time big accidents happends,like the one in Germany,the sinner is one person With depression,and they dig in his “history” to find answers.Answers that supports theory of depression as reason.
How many more stories do we need before more People Wake up and look into this?
Do we need more accidents as Wake up Calls?
do we have to wait another 20 yearsbefore someone dare to take a real clash With the Pharma industry and say that enough is enough.Now they have to be honest and tell the truth about the drugs and the harms it does to People.
One day it will come.In the meantime thousands die everyday around the world.
Children and adults!!!
While , drugcompanies polititians and doctors earns loads of Money.
What a crazy world we live in
I know lots of people you have gained their balance, free from psychotic thought-patters, with olanzepine.
I don’t doubt that you have and because you can recognize this you should also be able to recognize when it is not present. The issue then is being able to distinguish between the effects of and underlying disorder and adverse effects of treatment. This can be difficult but it can also be done.
You are speaking *for* people — and seemingly unaware of the many who have regained their balance without olanzepine. how many people do you know who were told: 1) Full recovery is possible without drugs and 2) Olanzepine causes many adverse effects – both psychological and physiological.?? How many people in your practice are given the choice to make for themselves?
How convenient that first line treatment (which protects psychiatrists from the liability of their lies) IS a psychotropic drug?
My comment above addresses what I believe is the criminal act of psychiatrists ;prescribing dangerous drugs with impunity and for huge profit.
Yes, the pharmaceutical companies have hidden their own data proving these drugs are dangerous, but there is no excuse in my mind for doctor’s colluding with these criminals– and actually, the culpability should rest with the doctors– which, is why comments like yours and the refrain of satisfied customers is becoming so intolerable. You simply refuse to accept any evidence that contradicts the confirmation bias of doctors without conscience.
This misses the point Zenon raises. We can decide later whether we value Zyprexa. But the point at the moment is can Zenon believe the evidence of his own eyes. He says he is a psycho-analyst. I have said in many places that just as Freud showed doctors should not believe everything their patients say – and of course they shouldn’t – so also Controlled Trials have taught doctors not to trust the evidence of their own eyes when it comes to determining whether their drug is causing a problem or not. Now it is absolutely right that we have to have an open mind as to what is going on but if we never believe what we hear or see for fear that we might be fooled by some account of abuse we end up being party to the greatest possible abuses.
Once we get back to being able to get agreement on what we see a drug doing, we can then decide whether we want that or not – or rather each of us individually can decide for ourselves
I appreciate this feedback as it goes more to the heart of the point I failed to make. so I will try again–
When all information regarding what a drug does or does not do is no more than accepting or rejecting either a patient’s story, the published version of the clinical trial data, or the observations of a psychiatrist– how possible is it to get agreement?- really?
1) Psychiatric Patients are often not believed– or viewed as not competent to assess their own responses to drugs. Third parties with some vested interest in the patients well being or behavior may not be helpful in determining the treatment response, or may — (worse in my opinion) be ignored– especially if they are opposed to the treatment.
2) The clinical trial data seems highly suspect for all the reasons you have cited, plus the multiple variables regarding who ticks off the boxes — subjectively derived-=symptom improvement? Yes? no? (some of the box tickers are not even clinicians)
3) Psychiatrists– the doctors you say are being led to believe the clinical trial data and may not believe what they see or hear ,may not even have the skills or the knowledge to closely scrutinize what they see or hear– or may feel some other compelling sense of obligation to see and hear whatever supports prescribing the drug.
We– all of us, are dealing with a very complex set of variables that are not lending themselves to anything close to a comfort level–. As for Zyprexa, add the off label prescribing and the wide range of dosing and it seems impossible to get agreement– on anything other than psychiatry can control the dissemination of information to the public– at least in mainstream media. So how can each of us as individuals decide if we want any of these drugs?
Content– or the compilation of very disturbing facts about these drugs are not considered *appropriate* for public scrutiny. So, what we get is the perceptions of the *experts*. While not claiming to be an expert, I admit to my own personal bias, developed over several years, re: how very few psychiatrists I have worked with who either spent enough time with a patient to engage reasonably in a process of determining who or what can be believed about their treatment response, or engaged in open minded study re: the wide range of adverse effects and troubling lack of scientific evidence for the claims made by pharma about these drugs. In other words, I had zero confidence in most psychiatrists as competent to assess the responses patients were having to treatment.
There are no objective, quantifiable tests to determine IF these drugs are needed, let alone IF they are producing a therapeutic effect. So– back to having to trust the *experts*– flying by the seat of their pants in more cases than I would expect you to admit.
My point in response to zenon was more along the lines of challenging the value of a single, over generalized claim based on an assumption that the people he/she knows have* achieved balance and are free from psychotic thought patterns *– I see no reason to believe this statement and fail to see the relevance of it to the conversation here– though it did strike me as a reason to begin another conversation — which I realize misses the point…
I must report that I was wrong about the distribution of suicides in my comment about the Friedman piece. There were suicides in both groups, odds ratio 2.1, and because of low number (8) that is not a significant difference. Friedman was still wrong to say there were no suicides in the treatment group. Seems like there must have been 5.
From the study:
For the entire dataset, the odds ratio was 0.85 (95% confidence interval 0.71 to 1.02). The estimated odds ratio for preparatory acts or worse was 1.12 (0.79 to 1.58). The odds ratio for completed suicide (2.13) was higher for those treated with an antidepressant, but this was based on just eight events and was not significant (0.41 to 10.99).
I don’t mind if a moderator deletes this and my previous post.
Caroline – the issue of statistical significance is irrelevant. The facts are there were proportionately more suicides in the treated group – even though treatment is supposed to reduce the risk.
Thank you. I don’t trust that meta-analysis anyway. They discarded 23 studies for the crime of having fewer than 20 participants. The whole point of a meta-analysis is to aggregate data from small studies. Plus smaller studies might have more details about adverse events.
I have written a response to Sapolsky’s LATimes.com column (link to that is in my response.) It won’t contain anything new for readers of davidhealy.com.
It was meant as a gentle introduction for people who still think psych drugs are benign, and ends with the suggestion that Sapolsky’s lab could do some research towards predicting who will have adverse reactions to the drugs.
How long have they been on Zyprexa and did they get other meds as well ?the side effects of zyprexa Works slowly.It takes time before the vital organs are effected No matter what you say,it slows the brain and thought process.
In Norway you are not allowed to drive cars when you take zyprexa.It must be a reason for that ?????
In accordance with the law…I sentence you…to be hanged by the neck…until death.
What, about it?
What, about me?
What, about Seroxat?
We have gone beyond pilots…on…whatever
Here’s a comment on a DM article regarding the co-pilot, sounds like this person might have known him.
ments below have not been moderated.
Lukas90, Berlin, 15 minutes ago
no excuse for what transpired, but andi was not an evil guy but he had demons within. He was a shy, sweet guy. He had an auto accident and many problems arose from it that were detrimental to his wellbeing.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3026640/Lufthansa-did-not-tell-aviation-regulator-Germanwings-pilot-Andreas-Lubitz-previously-struggled-depression.html#ixzz3WYbpqjRO
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Every person has their own lifestory and react to experiences in life differently.
Small Things early in life can be triggered by happenings later in life.To say that someone has a demon within is to go to fare.Nobody is born With a demon inside.
we dont know how the auto accident effected his feelings,but very often traumas like that has a huge impact on a persons feelings if not dealt With properly.As he seemed to be shy,maybe it was not easy for him to deal With his amotions aroud the accident?Doctors and Health care personal are not very good in looking into Peoples feelings and get to the root cause of problems.Here comes the easy way.Take a pil and be happy !!!!!
I have treated patients since olanzapine came to market ( because I worked then also as a general psychiatrist). Less side-effects, no suicides. -Here is my totally subjective experience after working in this field for nearly 35 years. Anyone has the right to own opinion. This is the last comment by me.
Nice spring for everybody,
Just 29 overdose deaths as of 2003. That’s was years after its introduction. 12 years have passed since then.
“Of the 29 toxicology cases with recorded olanzapine levels, 11 were reported in the literature (Table 1), 15 by medical examiners (Table 2, Table 3) and 1 in the Canadian Adverse Drug Reaction Monitoring Programme (Table 3). In addition, 2 other cases from the literature were deemed relevant and are discussed, although no olanzapine levels were available.”
All all overdoses accidental?
So the Zyprexa scandal in 2006 was only bullshit?? If you need a job you probably can get a job in Norway.the psyciatrists here get very good paid by Eli Lily for prescribing this drug and promote it .
You had killed a lot more people than this pilot as your flawed rhetoric deprived many of them from treatment. So just shut the fuck up you retarded scaremonger. I’m so glad that you were marginalized by the field.
NYTimes ran a piece today that used the word “antidepressants.” Please remain calm.
It seems to have been cribbed in part from a German article, linked below. Both articles quote from a damning 2011 publication, but neither gives the reference, and I cannot find it. The publication was by two Lufthansa psychiatrists, and I pasted in the quotation below.
The German piece is a hit piece one one of the Lufthansa psychiatrists, who apparently was a jerk, and had some nice perks from Lufthansa. The translation is awkward, but the gist is there.
NYT quoting the psychiatrist:
“It remains astonishing how many pilots with mild or fading depressive disorders taking antidepressants flew without the knowledge of flight doctors — and still fly for us,” Dr. Uwe Stüben and Dr. Jürgen Kriebel, who both worked for Lufthansa, wrote in the abstract of a paper published in 2011, while Mr. Lubitz was still a trainee.”
I guess NYT broke protocol and mentioned antidepressants because it was the best quote they could borrow that made their point about “denial.” (Pot, meet kettle.)
BTW I assume they did not see the 2011 publication, so it is an alleged quote at present. If they had a source they should have supplied it.
Why assume that the tragedy was due to mental disturbance or antidepressants?
We will never know. Was it a heart attack or a brain dysfunction? The defense mechanism is always in this kind of cases to need a cause-effect explanation.
Just as easy to say the defense mechanism is hysterical avoidance of looking for an explanation
So, a brain malfunction or a heart attack caused him to deliberately lock the cockpit door?
Dr. Peter Gotzsche, in his book “Deadly Medicine and Organized Crime”, estimates that 200,000 people around the world have died from Zyprexa (pp. 230-232).
I agree, Maeve….don’t see how a heart attack was in play.
Perhaps a serious case of a river here…..de-nial.
Thirteen people committed suicide in the Zyprexa clinical trials. Another detail hidden by Eli Lilly, along with the weight gain, diabetes, hyperglycemia problem.
I’ve met few people who defend this dirty drug.
Unless you have experienced the bizarre personality changes and character altering brain numbing effects of psychiatric drugs, you are not qualified to comment… even if you are a psychiatrist!….
truthman – it is only in light of much history and learning that I can now look back on some of my actions in the late 1980s (that were always inexplicable to me because they were out of character) and attribute them to the Prozac I was given by a psychiatrist for “chronic depression (familial in origin)” that I in fact never had in the first place…
I was uncharacteristically aggressive in meetings (at the time I was a high-level non-profit executive) and alienated some key people in my professional life. I had never done anything like this before, nor have I done it since.
Now that I am off all medications that I never needed, which ended up being lithium (due to a “flip” and a manic episode caused by long-term anti-depressant use) and benzodiazepines for sleep, I can clearly see, in hindsight, these behavioral abberations caused by the drug at the time.
Given that I have been a student of the topic for over twelve years, I realize that such insights often do not come so easily….particularly if they are somewhat subtle in nature.
The behavior of the pharmaceutical industry, the lack of real scientific fiber and cover-ups by physicians, the complicity of politicians, and the absence of aggressive truth-telling by the media, are all of a piece in my mind.
Zenon When i realized that you are a psyciatrist i thought i should not comment any more on you writings but i just wanted to ask you something .Wy do most psyciatrist think they are “God”and have all the answers ?
Why dont they listen to patients and their families ?
Norway was a wonderful Place on Earth untill the drugindustry brainwashed the Norwegian psyciatrists as well !!!
The americans are planning a trip to Marsh,i should wish they would fill the “airship”with psycitrist .The only luggage they would need was a bag fullfilled With psycofarma and they could live happily all day long
.Here on Earth we can fill Our days With love and care for each other
.People who struggle for some reason will be met With empathy and care takers that are interested in what the root cause of the problem is,
To learn the psyciatry to know is worse than anyone can dream of
.So much abuse from psyciatrist , that are paid by the psycofarma industry.!!!
I knew that it was a lot of politic and Money behind the Medical industry in USA but never though it was like this in Norway.
After investigating in Our own system ,it is maybe even worse than USA.!!!!
no “mental” patients are allowes to go to Court !!
I dont know were you are from, or how old you are ?
But there are fare too many People that have gotten their lives ruined by paycofarma
.I dont know how long i live thanks to psycofarma.but one thing is for sure,i will do whatever i can to get out Public in Norway With all the information i have.
They tried to kill me With a pillow in a hospital in Norway because they though i would take the Hospital and Eli Lily to Court ?
Wonder what they are afraid of ?I had never said i would do such a thing,but i denied taking more drugs because i have really experienced all the harm it has done to my body and mind.
I dont know if i am able to gain my Health back to normal,but i do everything i can to do that.
What inspires me most are all the People that have died or are struggeling because of psycofarma.
I am a fighter and has succeded in everything i have been doing in life,so i believe i will succeed this time too !!!
So to you and all psycitrist,get Down from Your ” high horse” and see what you are doing to People !!!!
Hey all of you,
Almost any serious acute sickness can lead to abnormal behavior. -and what comes to me as a psychiatrist, I am very anti- drugs, anti-ECTs etc. I prefer loving understanding of patients, listening and non-pharmacological treatments such as psychotherapy, physiotherapy, meditation, lifestyle change, even healing among others.
Happy 1st of May,
Olli Paavilainen, M.D., Finland.
Pharmaceutical Rape Apology:
An umbrella term for arguments suggesting that serious pharmaceutical violation does not exist or that it is not a widespread cause for concern. “Apology” in this context means defense or justification, like in Christian apologetics, not as a statement expressing regret.
Pharmaceutical rape apologists frequently view patients and doctors who recognize serious adverse events as misguided persons who are anti-science, conspiracy theorists, anti-vaccinationists, or some other type of deviant. Pharmaceutical rape apologists disbelieve pharmaceutical harms because evidence of harm is not forthcoming in the scientific literature. They deny any adverse outcome that does not conform with harms already commonly noted within the medical establishment, or because they have witnessed the drug work well for others.
Pharmaceutical violations are dramatically under-recognized. There is an enormous amount of misunderstanding and stigma associated with people who claim to have been harmed. Physician skepticism and outright denial prevents victims from having their claims validated, let alone officially reported to regulatory agencies. Instead of gaining support from a doctor to make sense of what has occurred, adverse effects are often trivialized or misdiagnosed as separate conditions (usually needing additional treatments).
Allegations of false reporting of injury often occur (within the realm of childhood vaccine administration, for instance). The medical establishment maintains that most pharmaceuticals are across-the-board safe when taken as prescribed with very little room left for discussion of even the known risks of harm. Serious adverse events are said to be “rare,” yet when they occur, victims and/or their families often find it difficult if not impossible to convince medical authorities that the event is related to medication.
According to this report Lubitz was on Cipralex and Mirtazapine: http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-temporarily-denied-medical-certificate-to-germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-1430380932
Posting this here because it too is about a bizarre crime in which drugs were implicated, and a sad crime at that.
The man killed his wife and sister, and was on drugs for ALS, some otc drugs, and undisclosed prescription drugs.
This article* about drugs used for ALS does mention antidepressants. It also mentions Tramadol, aka Ultram, for sleep. Smoking gun.
Psychiatric symptoms may include hallucinations, paranoia, extreme anxiety, panic attacks, and confusion.
One of the drugs used to relieve spasticity (tizanadine (Zanaflex) carries its own payload (not to mention it can increase spasms):
Side effects include dizziness, drowsiness, weakness, nervousness, hallucinations, depression, vomiting, dry mouth, constipation, diarrhea, stomach pain, heartburn, increased muscle spasms, back pain, rash, sweating, and a tingling sensation in the arms, legs, hands, and feet.
Also v. sad to think of the suffering of ALS patients who are jacked up on this pastillic horrorshow.
Back to the pilot.
LATimes’s Melissa Healy wrote about the crime on April 5 without mentioning medications. I tweeted her a question an hour ago: “Did the topic of medication arise during your research?” No reply yet. If she looks at my other Tweets she might not reply.
The point of the article was that it was aggression, not depression, that drove Lubitz.
Dr. Jeff Victoroff, a neuropsychiatrist at USC’s Keck School of Medicine, was quoted; that is his view. A few days before, Sapolsky had cited depression in the same newspaper. (Linked above in one of my posts.) Sapolsky was an Nth author on two of Victoroff’s studies, 2010 and 2011. Victoroff seems not to study drugs at all; in 2002 he was against ADHD drugs for children. I think I might have found an ethical psychiatrist, but I would like to know why he did not (or Melissa H. did not) mention side effects.
TOP 10 WORST PLANE CRASHES
10. Air France Flight 296
On June the 26th 1988, 3 People were killed on the A320 aircraft, which was taking off from Mulhouse Habsheim Airport, France. It was a test on the first ever fully automated plane to be flown by a computer, which didn’t go to plan.
9. Fairchild Airbase, Washington
On June the 24th 1994, Air Force Personnel were flying the B-52 aircraft around Fairchild Airbase, Washington, USA. Due to the pilot attempting to push the plane to its limit, the pilot lost control and all 4 U.S. Air Force Crew Members died.
8. Details Unknown
Believed to be in Russia, details of this incident have not been found.
7. C130 Aircraft Crash
Due to the pilot landing the plane on too much of a steep angle, the C130 crashed in the USA with the likelihood of ever crew member being killed.
6. China Airlines Flight 642
On August the 22nd 1999, China Airlines Flight 642 was stopping over in Hong Kong, and crashed. Of the 315 onboard the flight, 3 died. Although from the video that looks like a good result.
5. Unknown, Unknown, Unknow
No details were discovered about this crash.
4. Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961
On November the 23rd 1996, a flight enroute to Nairobi was hijacked by 3 Ethiopians seeking asylum in Australia. Upon the plane running out of fuel, it crash into the sea just off the coast of The Comoros Islands, killing 125 of the 175 passengers. This event was the most deadliest until 9/11.
3. TransAsia Flight ATR72
During February the 4th 2015, a TransAsia flight took off for a usual flight to Kinmen China, until it crashed into the Taiwan River due to engine failure. The plane also hit a cab. The plane was carrying 58 passengers of which 35 people survived.
On the 2nd of January 2013, an aircraft taking off from Bagram Airbase enroute to Dubai, crashed killing all 7 crew members. The plane crashed due to the aircrafts steep takeoff. Steep takeoffs are normal in Afghan as to eliminate the risk of being hit by enemy forces from the ground.
On September the 11th 2001, terrorists attacked the New York Trade Centers. 2996 people died, including 19 hijackers, 242 people on the four planes, 2606 people in Trade Center and surrounding area, 125 at the Pentagon, 72 Law Enforcement Officers, 343 Firefighters, and 55 Military Personal.
According to the latest news reports, this German co-pilot contacted many, many doctors in the weeks prior to the crash in an effort to get help.
Alas. Looks as if none of them suspected the medicines themselves might be the cause of his suicidal/homicidal ideation.
I was on Seroxat for almost 4 years and I can say with 100% certainty that SSRI’s can cause personality changes, impulsive behavior, inhibition, akathisia etc. These types of ‘side effects’ can make people behave in all sorts of strange ways which are unrecognizable to family and friends. The thought of pilots on psychiatric drugs (with the potential to experience these reactions) is very disturbing. Trying to walk on level ground on them was extremely difficult for me, I can only imagine the dangers of someone on them flying a plane!…
It’s hard for people who’ve not been a ‘different self’ for a time to understand that these are a new class of drugs. They are nothing like pot or alcohol. they’re not quite like sped. They can shift your axis. If only they made us crawl around and drool or bark at cars, it would be obvious intoxication.
Even akathisia looks like it’s due to a mood or state of mind. Weight gain can be blamed on psychology, too. And that only a portion go mad is another reason to locate the problem in the person.
I often think of the true gatekeeper for these things–editors and publishers–and wonder why they won’t escalate this. Realized they’re might be on the drugs.
Here in the U.S., when the pharmaceutical ads on TV are shown, the risks are intoned with a low voice and faster-than-normal speaking rate, and the visual interest is hyped at the same time. People make jokes about this side effect droning voice…..and conclude that it could never happen to them or anyone they know.
Strange editorial I just found on psychiatrictimes.com
To the Clinicians of the Co-Pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525
April 10, 2015 | Couch in Crisis, Disaster Psychiatry, Risk Assessment, Suicide
By H. Steven Moffic, MD
“I do not know how prominent so-called “anti-psychiatrists” are in Germany, but if they are anything like they are here in the US, they are likely to blame psychiatric medication for the co-pilot’s bizarre and tragic behavior. Of course, they could well have a point. Some antidepressants, which can cause visual side effects, were prescribed for Mr Lubitz, agents perhaps, that we don’t in the US.
We know he was concerned about his vision, but speculation so far is that this complaint was psychosomatic. In addition, sudden withdrawal from some antidepressants can lead to increased agitation. Moreover, antidepressants can trigger a (hypo)manic episode, although of course a manic episode can occur that leads to grandiosity and agitation. On the other hand, no one seems to have described such changes in Mr Lubitz before the crash.”
I have informations from a german article.
First remember FAA-Documents.
lubitz was on citolapram and mirtazapine 2009, fully recovered from depression with the help of psychotherapeutic treatment, too, and medications was tapered of.
FAA said: Because of your history of reactive depression, operation of aircraft is prohibited at any time new symptomes or adverse changes occur or at any time medication and/or treatment is required.
June 11th 2015, there was an articel in german newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung (paid-content)
That is the timeline and informations they give:
23.12: lubitz felt visual problems (Floater / Mouches volantes). appointment with doctor, no organic reason found, eyes should be fine
29.12. Appointment again, some test is made. Doctor’s note: he seemed worried, anxious.(who would not!)
30.12. Appointment again, test is ok, eyes should be fine
Beginning 2015: more (a lot of) appointments with ophthalmologists and in clinics – nothing found. But he still experienced visual problems. He feared to go blind.
Family cannot understand or see that he feels visual problems. He can read in dark light, he can read text on his phone. they encourage him to see a psychiatrist mid of march.
In a March 10 e-mail to a doctor, Lubitz had indicated he could only sleep two hours a night and wanted urgent help. “i can not sleep because i fear for my eyes”. Around than time, he saw psychiatrists with his family, the psychiatrists said he has a mental disorder, fearing too much for his eyes.
He did not work 13.-22. March.
Two weeks bevor the crash he spend a holiday-weekend with family. They say it was nice.
Than he started to google like crazy a lot of stuff he did not befor: about visual problems and ways to help out, about sleepings problems and ways to lessen them, than on March 18th and on, ways to commit suicide, all by himself (6 hours of searching)
20.03 He reseached for planes and doors (one website, than a documentary)
next days: research for sleeping problems and visual problems again.
Research what one can do if suicid is not successfull (Patientenverfügung)
Shopping and cooking with girlfriend.
24.03. plain crash
Medication is not mentioned in the article. Medication is not even mentioned in the german press release (DPA) about the closed-door meeting with Associated Press June 11th with Robin.
And than I read in the New Yotk times and everywhere the Press realease from AP: that he doupled up the dosis!
In a March 10 e-mail to a doctor, Lubitz had indicated he could only sleep two hours a night and wanted urgent help, Robin said. Lubitz specified he was taking Mirtazapine, an antidepressant, and had even doubled the dosage from 15 to 30 milligrams in a failed bid to improve his sleep, and his fear of going blind continued, the prosecutor added.
But for me it is not clear, when he started to take Mirtazapin again. There is no hint anywhere.
I am really sad. He had visual problems no doctor knew where they came from…
perhaps we will never know. but for me, there is an obvious connection between research for suicide-methods and the change in dosis (adverse reaction? obviously mirtazapine did NOT help again fpr sleeping problems.
What I read from the articel is, that he did not have suicide-wishes the weeks befor Mid of March, there was no research for that.
I don’t get it. Pilots on “medication” are not allowed to fly for fear they will do something. So if they know “medication” causes people “to do things”, why is this “medication” even prescribed or approved? The simple fact they have to admit pilots on “medication” could be a danger” is literally telling us that this “medication” is at fault. I’ll never get this.
As we contemplate the probable confirmation of a person who looks to be the worst future Commissioner of the FDA ever nominated (President Obama has nominated Dr. Robert Califf – a man with longstanding and deep financial ties to Big Pharma, no public health experience, and who scoffs at the Sunshine Act), let’s hope that we (collectively) can pull together an international conference – located in Washington, DC, or else somewhere fun – in which the many questions of suicidality, suicide, and homicide induced by medications can be considered in a serious and multi-disciplinary way.
The medical-legal questions themselves are a knotty problem, let alone the rage of survivors, the federal and state policies that should be changed, possibilities for prevention, and so on, all need to be considered and all “stakeholders” should be involved and present in the discussions and debate.
Here we have someone doing a Lubitz with a bus.
Most strange about Andreas Lubitz is how many doctors he visited giving him only medication instead of therapy, which obviously would have been necessary.
Having asked myself what would have helped I compared him to Edward Snowden. They’re both the same generation adapting to neo-conservative lifestyle without revolting like former generations did. While Snowden found a comfortable way to let others analyze these structures driving him into his conflict of conscience, so he could free himself at least from that, Lubitz was stuck. Nobody will ever find out, because he never started the process of talking to find out for himself.
Therefore medication is already to blame for being given as an alternative to therapy.
And in yet another casualty of the prescription drug industry, Steve Francesco, in his excellent book about the death of his son, “Overmedicated and Undertreated – How I Lost My Only Son to Today’s Toxic Children’s Mental Health Industry”, describes his teenage son’s death from Risperdal – neuroleptic malignant syndrome. Heartbreaking.
on saturday the german newspaper Bild cited from the final report.
They said: Lubitz was set on Citalopram eight days before the crash.
I have written about it (of course in german).
Many Emails are documented in words. He seemed to be almost desperate and was looking for help, asking for Lorazepam.
But his doctor prescribed him Citalopram.
In the autopsy they found Mirtazapin and Citalopram in Lubitz hair. So we know, he was taking the drugs.
What a surprise. One year after the crash!